If you're from a communist country, you sort of HAVE to answer "yes" to whether you were associated with the Communist party. You undoubtedly had friends, neighbors, or family in it.
When my parents were becoming US citizens in 2001, they ordered some prep books for the test and interview. Most of the books available were obviously written for non-native English speakers (we moved from England, so these were not necessary) and I remember one in particularly which had example interview questions and answers.
For the question, "Have you ever been a member of or in any way associated (either directly or indirectly) with The Communist Party?", the sample answer was "Yes, in the 1970s, but I never went to the meetings."
I always wondered how many people who struggled with English repeated this answer back at the interview, despite never being involved in the Communist Party or really knowing what they were admitting to.
Once when I joined a local rod and gun club, I was asked if I belonged to any organizations that advocated the violent overthrow of the U.S. government.
Ha ha ha. I remember when I got my visa to England I had to fill out a U.S. form that asked me some of the questions above, as well as one that asked if I had ever been assiciated with "crimes of genocide or crimes against humanity."
1. Some perhaps small number of applicants might answer yes, especially in light of the penalties for lying. This is especially true if they have an excuse or a spin ("I was a member of Hamas when I was young, impulsive and didn't have a job offer from Intel"), but still. It would be an entry point to a wider investigation.
2. A$$-covering. If the INS never asks, they will have catch righteous congressional hell if a terrorist slips through the process.
(By the way, Wikipedia indicates that the INS ceased to exist in 2003. The Department of Homeland Security now performs that function.)
At least as of 1999, the forms that military recruiters used when talking to prospective enlistees still included the "are you a communist" question as well as the "are you gay" question. However, my recruiter, upon reaching those questions, crossed them out on the form and pointed out that they no longer ask them. (However, he proceeded to joke that "of course, between you and me, the answer would be no, right?")
At any rate, it's a bit surprising that the naturalization process still actively asks those questions.
I recently filled out the N-400 Form and was smiling to myself as I read those questions. After reading the series of questions, I had to go back to the first section of that page, where it asked if we ever were members of any organization, association, party, club, or any other group in the United States. I had wrote down the professional and other national groups I was a member of and it made me think if it was actually asking for any association with the questions that followed.
"Have you ever been a member of or in any way associated (either directly or indirectly) with a terrorist organization?" Seems vague. It probably should be "with a terrorist organization as recognized by the United States" For some Hamas is a terrorist organization, some make a link that certain governments are behaving like a terrorist organization.
But sadly yeah the whole reason those questions are asked is because you can prosecute/fine or deal with people who put down no but you can prove has a link/associate/business relationship mentioned.
Just like job applications, the whole point is that 10 years later, if the machines find out you lied, you are deported without having to consider your life here, the flimsiness of evidence for your guilt by associations, or any other relevant fact. You lied on the application ?.... adios!!
On the other hand, if you don't lie, and say you did have such associations, you are immediately subject to the bureaucratic vagaries on the spot, without recourse.
So which behavior is incentivized? Lying or truth-telling? The odds might be affected by whether you are an innocent supplicant (perhaps with lots of juice) or a wild-eyed (behind the dark glasses) anarchist. All this is coupled with the degree to which the vast state enterprise is fearful at the moment or merely its usual inscrutable.
I just passed my citizenship exam a month ago and due to become a citizen in a few weeks.
In addition to some of the questions above and more, the form I present asks (to paraphrase); that in the few weeks between the interview and the ceremony have I become a 'habitual drunkard'
This stuff is odd.
The form also states that while all information is optional, it will affect my application. Nice.
Back in 2001 you also had to answer 6 out of ten questions correctly, from a list of about 100 where they gave you both the questions and the correct answers to study.
I had a 10:30am or so appointment and got all ten general knowledge type questions answered correctly. The surprised interviewer told me that I was the first applicant who had passed the test today. I clarified that she did not mean 10 out of ten, but even 6 out of ten to meet the minimum.
And yes the other (are you a communist?) questions are stupid and the process inefficient and the fee charged was too high.
The same questions are on the Visa Waiver forms that non-residents have to fill out every time we visit. I wonder if the Pope has to tick yes to the first question?
I purchased a Dell laptop online a few years back and was required to tick boxes to declare that I was not planning on using the computer to engage in terrorist acts, overthrow democratically elected governments, create civil unrest and God knows what else.
And Hmmm @ #9, I am sorely tempted to tick 'yes' every time I see one of these questions! Do we know if anyone has said 'yes' just to see what happens, and what does happen?
I went through the citizenship interview a couple of weeks ago, and while making small talk with the interviewer, I found out that the most difficult "question" she asks of her interviewees is the first one, where she asks them to raise their right hand.
Turns out, non-English speakers coach the hell out of themselves for the civics/history test, as well as the reading and writing test (sentence structure and probable words are supplied ahead of time to all interviewees), but if they do not speak English, and are sufficiently nervous about the interview, they will invariably not understand the request to raise their right hand.
In her words, "Now, I understand you're nervous. That is to be expected, and we understand that. But, I think that even if you were nervous, and I asked you to raise your right hand in your native language, you would know what I meant." Through this 30-second interaction, they demonstrate an inability to speak English (also part of the interview testing) and she is required to reject their application.
(Yes, I answered 'no' to all the questions above on my application, and again when she asked me during the interview. She skipped the Nazi party question. I guess being somewhat dark-skinned and 28 kind of disqualifies me.)
I think there's more to "Have you ever been a member of or in any way associated (either directly or indirectly) with The Communist Party?" As far as I recall when my wife had to answer it, it continued with something like "or any other form of totalitarian government."
Anyway, despite her mother having been a card burning member of the communist party, she just put 'no'. It's a dumb question, but unless you want to make life very hard for yourself, you'll just give them what they want and get on with it.
This reminds me of my girlfriends' parents during highschool. They'd constantly ask me question there's no conceivable way I'd answer yes to regardless of if it was true.
Unfortunately they didn't listen when I tried to explain how the questions were pointless.
British Airways still asks the old "Three Questions" concerning your luggage. I'm fairly sure they never caught a terrorist or protected a plane using them and if a terrorist were trying to get on a BA plane, they'd have rehearsed their answers. Yet the company still spends shareholders' money asking the questions (each run takes a half-minute of a gate agent's time). All that just to say ridiculous questions and processes take on a life of their own, regardless of their cost.
These questions get asked whenever you apply for a visa or visa-waiver, or for a green card, or for naturalization. Having done all but the last of the above, I know them well.
They removed the communist party one a while back. Since then my favourite is "Have you have been convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude ... ?" How many native English speakers even know what moral turpitude is? (like absolute depravity, its not as much fun as it sounds).
When I was at university a friend of mine applied for a post at GCHQ, the branch of British intelligence that monitors communications. He had to answer a question along the lines of 'Have you ever been a member of a subversive organisation?" We spent a few minutes wondering if the Methodist Church qualified...
I think you are missing the point with this post. Clearly no one would fess up to any of these things. BUT if you lie on your INS form and are later found to be, say a communist, then you can be deported not for being a communist, but for lying on your INS form.
When you look at the questions that way, these questions make a lot of sense and reduce the hassle faced by the INS of getting someone out of the country.
As pointed out, the purpose of these questions is to enable the immigration benefit to be revoked at any point in the future if the applicant is proven to have lied.
US citizenship, in particular, once granted, cannot be revoked by the government except upon very narrow grounds. One of them is that the applicant obtained naturalization by fraud, by lying or by concealing a material fact.
There is, in fact, a Nazi concentration camp guard whose citizenship was revoked and he was deported. His citizenship was revoked because he lied about his Nazi past on his application forms.
Here a link: Former Nazi Concentration Camp Guard Loses U.S. Citizenship
...The complaint further alleged that his wartime Nazi service rendered him ineligible for a U.S. immigration visa and that he concealed that service when he applied for a visa and later for U.S. citizenship....
Speaking of citizenship interviews, my brother was going through his while eavesdropping on the conversation going on in the next room (apparently, the walls were pretty thin). The interviewer was asking the woman, "Is my head on fire?" I would assume the woman couldn't answer due to her inability to comprehend English (without mindlessly memorizing answers from manuals, anyways).
"Have you ever committed a crime or offense for which you were not arrested?" There's a lot of loopholes in this question. Would littering count? (In Singapore, litterers receive physical punishments)
And it would be really, really interesting to see what they would do if you checked "yes" for any of these questions.
That brings up the old joke "Have you stopped beating your wife?" No = I still beat her Yes = I used to beat her and any longer reply seems defensive. What happens if you claim not to recall like the Gonzalas?
"Have you ever advocated (either directly or indirectly) the overthrow of any government by force or violence". I suppose people who supported the invasion of Iraq will answer 'Yes' to this one.
I think the airport luggage questions are a bit different, they appear to be meant to take away deniability. I.e. when you get caught in security with something illegal that you might have been trying to slip through, you cannot say "oh, sorry, some other guy packed this bag and gave it to me, it's not really mine" or something like that.
I had to apply for a US visa just a few months ago. It had all the questions listed here and it was no surprise. What really seemed strange to me, though, is that questions regarding your education, past working relationships and any special skills involving technology, chemistry etc are only asked from *male* applicants!
I filled in the US Visa Waiver form a while back, and I seem to remember it asking if I planned to engage in "moral turpitude" whilst in the US. I hadn't intended to do so before I was asked, but it kind of sounded like fun once the prospect was raised.
I'm pretty sure it also asked me not to bring "birds, snails or other animals" into the US. Surely "animals" would have covered this stuff? Why emphasise birds and snails particularly?
When I did the documentation for my Green Card, the 'Communist Party' question was on there. When I handed in my paperwork, I pointed it out to the person behind the counter and said "I guess the Communists are still the bad guys, huh?" and she said "Yep, last time I checked."
What's worse is that even U.S. citizens, that have to deal with the INS, encounter multitudes of INS forms full of dopey questions and dopey people with attitudes.
The DMV is a party compared to these people. A US citizen, requiring an appointment, takes about a year to get in NY. Then, they mail you the day and time of your meeting. If you can't make it you go back to the end of the line.
It's only a nation obsessed with burocracy that can make it a bigger offense to lie about being a terrorist on their forms rather than actually being one.
I often wonder if Gerry Adams ticked some of these boxes when he was being lauded in Washington.
Wouldn't it be impossible for anyone to answer yes truthfully to the terrorist organisation question? People who are members of such organisations don't think they're terrorists. They think they're freedom fighters trying to overthrow their oppressors or counter revolutionaries trying to regain control from the pretenders who siezed it in a traitorous coup or whatever. But not terrorists.
Maybe they need to print off a list of organisations they consider as such and change the question to "Have you ever been a member of an organisation listed on card C?" or similar.
I volunteer with a group that helps immigrants pass this citizenship test. I do know people who have answered 'yes' to these questions solely because their English is not good enough to really understand. Sometimes the questions are asked in a different way that the applicant isn't prepared for. I think the questions are left in to weed out those with poor spoken English.
I answered yes once on a similar questionnaire asking if I was bringing any drugs into Australia. Being a prepared individual with chronic health problems, I always travel with several legal prescription and over the counter drugs, so of course I declared them. I thought the form would specify illegal drugs if that's what they intended, and I wasn't sure what drugs were illegal there anyway as it isn't my native country. With the United States government being obsessed with prescription drugs from Canada or Mexico, it wouldn't surprise me if a government with a different constitution than ours confiscated such drugs at their border.
Anyway, I got shunted into a different line (with a much shorter wait, I might add), whereupon they looked at me like an idiot for not knowing they meant illegal drugs, and passed me through after a cursory search. At least now I know the reason for the question.
I lived in Canada for a while in the early 1990s, moving there to flee an abusive husband. In order to stay, since I was married and was there without my husband, I needed to get my husband's written consent. Yes, the same husband that I was fleeing due to abuse. My lawyer worked to get the requirement waived, to no avail. Fortunately, my (now) ex-husband did consent, but it cost me in the divorce settlement. So, it's not just the US immigration system that needs a reality check
Here is a foolproof way to get through US customs without them looking into your stuff (even though SL was taking about immigration it is related): there is typically a question when you fill out the form coming into the US about whether you have certain food products. Go ahead and check YES. This will guarantee they stop you since clearly the "right" answer is always NO. When they ask you what you have, show them your candy bar and say you wanted to be complete in answering the question (or were unsure if that counted as something you needed to report). They will immediately wave you through without bothering to check anything else. Plus, the line with people who checked YES is often shorter!
I friend of a friend felt very secure at his citizenship interview, and when they asked him if he ever dealt drugs, he made a joke - he said "Why, do you need any?".
They had no sense of humor. They treated it as if he was serious. No soup for you.
I work for the government in "Northern Ireland". There are ministers in our Assembly and Executive who some believe, rightly or wrongly, belonged to certain organisations which they consider, rightly or wrongly, to have been terrorist organisations. Does that mean that by working for them that I am associating with terrorists?! Or a terrorist organisation?! Should I play it safe and answer "Yes" next time I'm on my way to the US?!
Given that it costs thousands of dollars to apply for citizenship, and the process is ridiculous as highlighted here, is it any wonder we have so many illegal immigrants in this country?
What person seeking a new life in America, escaping poverty and a lack of education elsewhere, could possibly navigate all this?
- "Very clever idea, though." - "What is?" - "Asking the questions when people arrive. If anyone was coming here to do some subversive overthrowing, everyone'd be down on him like a pound of bricks as soon as he answered 'Yes'." - "It's a sneaky trick, isn't it," said Angalo, in an admiring tone of voice. -- The nomes encounter American customs regulations (Terry Pratchett, Wings)
Those questions are meant to provide a perjury charge when the applicant is caught lying later on. And these days only perjury charges are easy to prove, ex: the steroid scandal.
When I had my interview after filling the N400, the officer and I discussed if many Nazi party members were still alive, this was 2 yrs back. But the other question is absurd. Why would anyone confess to a crime that the authorities are not aware of, when there is the 5th amendment protection guaranteed to all in the US not just citizens? Also declaring membership in a communist party does not mean much, it is not illegal to be a communist in the US.
These are ridiculous questions to ask people, and it is tempting to make fun of the INS for such idiocy....but remember this is a country where most (all?) states require every kid to mindlessly repeat the pledge of allegiance every day at school. Heck, our city council members and school local school board members even do it.
RE:52 - One requirement of becoming a citizen of the United States is to know and understand English. Unless an applicant meets certain requirements for a waiver (such as having a green card for 15 years and being over the age of 55 at the time of filing), they should know they have to speak English.
RE:58 - The officers who are conducting these interviews take them seriously. They are required to place applicants under oath before the interview begins. So, it wasn't very bright of your friend to "joke" around when he was giving sworn testimony. After all, he probably wouldn't start joking with a judge if he were on trial.
Regarding the communist question, it is still important. There are still communists out there trying to infiltrate our government and steal our secrets. A rather populous country that recently hosted the Olympics comes to mind.
In the late 1960s my friend wanted a visa to visit Chicago. He went to the US Embassy and one of the questions was "Have you ever used illegal drugs, and if so why?" He answered "Yes, marijuana for listening to music." He was surprised when he didn't get his visa. I guess they don't give points for honesty or stupidity.
Someone pointed our the questions they ask about your luggage at a foreign airport when you come to the US. They have absolutely no value, particularly because most modern-day terrorists are suicidal (see shoe-bomber, Sept 11, etc.), therefore would pass the questionnaire with no problem.
Also, why do they still ask those questions when there's actual screening of your luggage: does that mean that there is a possibility they miss a bomb (whatever the form) at screening?
Lastly, the worst part about the process is that the questions are always the same (word to word). This makes it very painful for both the security employee and frequent travelers. And because it is painful, this makes the process less effective in my opinion. Why wouldn't it be a normal conversation instead?
#65: "Regarding the communist question, it is still important. There are still communists out there trying to infiltrate our government and steal our secrets. A rather populous country that recently hosted the Olympics comes to mind."
You must be joking aren't you? Or did you watch too many James Bond movies?
Being a Chinese spy who gets involved in criminal activities such as stealing sensitive information belonging to the American government has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he or she is a communist.
It is perfectly legal to be communist in the US. It is perfectly illegal to steal government secrets. Whether you are communist or not.
I'm sorry but your starting assumptions are completely uncorrect, since you are using communism and china interchangeably. "Communist" does not equal "China" or even the "Chinese Communist Party". As far as I know, the USCIS doesn't ask you if you are part of the Chinese Communist Party. People shouldn't equate the US and capitalism for the same reason. Communism is an ideology based on very valid points from regarded theories of economy (think Marx). This point is generally completely disregarded in the US. I'm not saying that everybody should be communist, it is just not criminal to be one.
What if you're a spy from Irak, or Iran, or any other ideology or religion or country for that matter? The question is therefore completely outdated.
It's amusing that you find it astonishing that these are on the naturalisation papers - they are in fact far more widespread, every non-US citizen visiting the United States has to fill these out, at least on the way from Europe.
The worst part is filling them out in Shannon Airport (Ireland) while US soliders point and laugh, to this day unaware that the wall between you and them does not reach to the ceiling and therefore is not sound proof.
If you're from a communist country, you sort of HAVE to answer "yes" to whether you were associated with the Communist party. You undoubtedly had friends, neighbors, or family in it.
ResponderEliminarOne is reminded of the story of the Italian anarchist who on trying in immigrate in the 1920s when asked to answer the question:
ResponderEliminar"Do you advocate the overthrow of United States by force or violence?"
Circled "force".
When my parents were becoming US citizens in 2001, they ordered some prep books for the test and interview. Most of the books available were obviously written for non-native English speakers (we moved from England, so these were not necessary) and I remember one in particularly which had example interview questions and answers.
ResponderEliminarFor the question, "Have you ever been a member of or in any way associated (either directly or indirectly) with The Communist Party?", the sample answer was "Yes, in the 1970s, but I never went to the meetings."
I always wondered how many people who struggled with English repeated this answer back at the interview, despite never being involved in the Communist Party or really knowing what they were admitting to.
Once when I joined a local rod and gun club, I was asked if I belonged to any organizations that advocated the violent overthrow of the U.S. government.
ResponderEliminar"Well no, not the violent overthrow..."
I would prefer some level of obfuscation
ResponderEliminar"Have you not not been arrested?"
Ha ha ha. I remember when I got my visa to England I had to fill out a U.S. form that asked me some of the questions above, as well as one that asked if I had ever been assiciated with "crimes of genocide or crimes against humanity."
ResponderEliminarSo if you say No to having committed any crime or offense and not being arrested, can you be deported for having jaywalked?
ResponderEliminarFor question 22a on that form, does that include time spent in college?
ResponderEliminarTwo other advantages:
ResponderEliminar1. Some perhaps small number of applicants might answer yes, especially in light of the penalties for lying. This is especially true if they have an excuse or a spin ("I was a member of Hamas when I was young, impulsive and didn't have a job offer from Intel"), but still. It would be an entry point to a wider investigation.
2. A$$-covering. If the INS never asks, they will have catch righteous congressional hell if a terrorist slips through the process.
(By the way, Wikipedia indicates that the INS ceased to exist in 2003. The Department of Homeland Security now performs that function.)
My proposal for other questions:
ResponderEliminar1. Do you plan to exceed speed limits while driving within America?
2. Will you or have you ever taken a towel from a hotel?
3. Have you ever been a part of any organization or group?
4. Have you ever broken any laws, including the laws of thermodynamics and/or gravity?
5. Between 1861 and 1865, did you aid- either financially or by participating in armed conflict- the Confederate States of America?
6. Have you ever tasted, or associated with those who did taste, forbidden fruit from the Garden of Eden?
7. Have you ever been associated (either directly or indirectly) with the subversive Flat Earth Society?
That should just about cover anything law enforcement needs.
Don't answer yes even as a joke. INS does not have a sense of humor.
ResponderEliminarAt least as of 1999, the forms that military recruiters used when talking to prospective enlistees still included the "are you a communist" question as well as the "are you gay" question. However, my recruiter, upon reaching those questions, crossed them out on the form and pointed out that they no longer ask them. (However, he proceeded to joke that "of course, between you and me, the answer would be no, right?")
ResponderEliminarAt any rate, it's a bit surprising that the naturalization process still actively asks those questions.
I wonder what happens if one does say yes. If your second-cousin once removed was a member of the Communist Party, do they consider that "associated"?
ResponderEliminarI recently filled out the N-400 Form and was smiling to myself as I read those questions. After reading the series of questions, I had to go back to the first section of that page, where it asked if we ever were members of any organization, association, party, club, or any other group in the United States. I had wrote down the professional and other national groups I was a member of and it made me think if it was actually asking for any association with the questions that followed.
ResponderEliminar"Have you ever been a member of or in any way associated (either directly or indirectly) with a terrorist organization?" Seems vague. It probably should be "with a terrorist organization as recognized by the United States" For some Hamas is a terrorist organization, some make a link that certain governments are behaving like a terrorist organization.
ResponderEliminarBut sadly yeah the whole reason those questions are asked is because you can prosecute/fine or deal with people who put down no but you can prove has a link/associate/business relationship mentioned.
Like what several others have said, this is simply a legal form of ass-covering (says the student who was in immigration law 6 hours ago).
ResponderEliminarJust like job applications, the whole point is that 10 years later, if the machines find out you lied, you are deported without having to consider your life here, the flimsiness of evidence for your guilt by associations, or any other relevant fact. You lied on the application ?.... adios!!
ResponderEliminarOn the other hand, if you don't lie, and say you did have such associations, you are immediately subject to the bureaucratic vagaries on the spot, without recourse.
So which behavior is incentivized? Lying or truth-telling? The odds might be affected by whether you are an innocent supplicant (perhaps with lots of juice) or a wild-eyed (behind the dark glasses) anarchist. All this is coupled with the degree to which the vast state enterprise is fearful at the moment or merely its usual inscrutable.
I just passed my citizenship exam a month ago and due to become a citizen in a few weeks.
ResponderEliminarIn addition to some of the questions above and more, the form I present asks (to paraphrase); that in the few weeks between the interview and the ceremony have I become a 'habitual drunkard'
This stuff is odd.
The form also states that while all information is optional, it will affect my application. Nice.
Indeed, isn't it still true that the UN has not come to an agreement about what terrorist activity is?
ResponderEliminarOh yeah... the INS became the BCIS. The BCIS became the USCIS. Anyone care to guess what they call it next year?
ResponderEliminarBack in 2001 you also had to answer 6 out of ten questions correctly, from a list of about 100 where they gave you both the questions and the correct answers to study.
ResponderEliminarI had a 10:30am or so appointment and got all ten general knowledge type questions answered correctly. The surprised interviewer told me that I was the first applicant who had passed the test today. I clarified that she did not mean 10 out of ten, but even 6 out of ten to meet the minimum.
And yes the other (are you a communist?) questions are stupid and the process inefficient and the fee charged was too high.
The same questions are on the Visa Waiver forms that non-residents have to fill out every time we visit. I wonder if the Pope has to tick yes to the first question?
ResponderEliminarI purchased a Dell laptop online a few years back and was required to tick boxes to declare that I was not planning on using the computer to engage in terrorist acts, overthrow democratically elected governments, create civil unrest and God knows what else.
ResponderEliminarAnd Hmmm @ #9, I am sorely tempted to tick 'yes' every time I see one of these questions! Do we know if anyone has said 'yes' just to see what happens, and what does happen?
It kind of reminds me of the old days when the in the South, they'd ban blacks (and a few whites) for voting for lacking moral turpitude.
ResponderEliminarkingpolitics.com
I went through the citizenship interview a couple of weeks ago, and while making small talk with the interviewer, I found out that the most difficult "question" she asks of her interviewees is the first one, where she asks them to raise their right hand.
ResponderEliminarTurns out, non-English speakers coach the hell out of themselves for the civics/history test, as well as the reading and writing test (sentence structure and probable words are supplied ahead of time to all interviewees), but if they do not speak English, and are sufficiently nervous about the interview, they will invariably not understand the request to raise their right hand.
In her words, "Now, I understand you're nervous. That is to be expected, and we understand that. But, I think that even if you were nervous, and I asked you to raise your right hand in your native language, you would know what I meant." Through this 30-second interaction, they demonstrate an inability to speak English (also part of the interview testing) and she is required to reject their application.
(Yes, I answered 'no' to all the questions above on my application, and again when she asked me during the interview. She skipped the Nazi party question. I guess being somewhat dark-skinned and 28 kind of disqualifies me.)
I think there's more to "Have you ever been a member of or in any way associated (either directly or indirectly) with The Communist Party?" As far as I recall when my wife had to answer it, it continued with something like "or any other form of totalitarian government."
ResponderEliminarAnyway, despite her mother having been a card burning member of the communist party, she just put 'no'. It's a dumb question, but unless you want to make life very hard for yourself, you'll just give them what they want and get on with it.
This reminds me of my girlfriends' parents during highschool. They'd constantly ask me question there's no conceivable way I'd answer yes to regardless of if it was true.
ResponderEliminarUnfortunately they didn't listen when I tried to explain how the questions were pointless.
Reminds me of the questions asked at airports: "Did anyone ask you to carry luggage for them?" or "Did you pack your bags yourself?", etc etc.
ResponderEliminar/mp
Why make the assumption that people will NEVER say "yes" to those questions?
ResponderEliminarThat assumption is a bit too quick.
British Airways still asks the old "Three Questions" concerning your luggage. I'm fairly sure they never caught a terrorist or protected a plane using them and if a terrorist were trying to get on a BA plane, they'd have rehearsed their answers. Yet the company still spends shareholders' money asking the questions (each run takes a half-minute of a gate agent's time). All that just to say ridiculous questions and processes take on a life of their own, regardless of their cost.
ResponderEliminarThese questions get asked whenever you apply for a visa or visa-waiver, or for a green card, or for naturalization. Having done all but the last of the above, I know them well.
ResponderEliminarThey removed the communist party one a while back. Since then my favourite is "Have you have been convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude ... ?" How many native English speakers even know what moral turpitude is? (like absolute depravity, its not as much fun as it sounds).
#22 simon -- brilliantly pointed out that the current Pope would have to answer yes to the Nazi question.
ResponderEliminarWhen I was at university a friend of mine applied for a post at GCHQ, the branch of British intelligence that monitors communications. He had to answer a question along the lines of 'Have you ever been a member of a subversive organisation?" We spent a few minutes wondering if the Methodist Church qualified...
ResponderEliminarI think you are missing the point with this post. Clearly no one would fess up to any of these things. BUT if you lie on your INS form and are later found to be, say a communist, then you can be deported not for being a communist, but for lying on your INS form.
ResponderEliminarWhen you look at the questions that way, these questions make a lot of sense and reduce the hassle faced by the INS of getting someone out of the country.
Do people really have pink and maroon eyes?
ResponderEliminarAs pointed out, the purpose of these questions is to enable the immigration benefit to be revoked at any point in the future if the applicant is proven to have lied.
ResponderEliminarUS citizenship, in particular, once granted, cannot be revoked by the government except upon very narrow grounds. One of them is that the applicant obtained naturalization by fraud, by lying or by concealing a material fact.
There is, in fact, a Nazi concentration camp guard whose citizenship was revoked and he was deported. His citizenship was revoked because he lied about his Nazi past on his application forms.
Same kind of stupid questions to get a visa...
ResponderEliminarHere a link:
ResponderEliminarFormer Nazi Concentration Camp Guard Loses
U.S. Citizenship
...The complaint further alleged that his wartime Nazi service rendered him ineligible for a U.S. immigration visa and that he concealed that service when he applied for a visa and later for U.S. citizenship....
I'm confused about something. Is it illegal to be a communist in the US? If not, what business does the question have on the form?
ResponderEliminarWas it ever illegal?
New Application Question: Do you plan to obtain a drivers license in the United States and drive slow in the left hand lane?
ResponderEliminarSpeaking of citizenship interviews, my brother was going through his while eavesdropping on the conversation going on in the next room (apparently, the walls were pretty thin). The interviewer was asking the woman, "Is my head on fire?" I would assume the woman couldn't answer due to her inability to comprehend English (without mindlessly memorizing answers from manuals, anyways).
ResponderEliminar"Have you ever committed a crime or offense for which you were not arrested?"
There's a lot of loopholes in this question. Would littering count? (In Singapore, litterers receive physical punishments)
And it would be really, really interesting to see what they would do if you checked "yes" for any of these questions.
That brings up the old joke "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
ResponderEliminarNo = I still beat her
Yes = I used to beat her
and any longer reply seems defensive.
What happens if you claim not to recall like the Gonzalas?
"Have you ever advocated (either directly or indirectly) the overthrow of any government by force or violence".
ResponderEliminarI suppose people who supported the invasion of Iraq will answer 'Yes' to this one.
I think the airport luggage questions are a bit different, they appear to be meant to take away deniability. I.e. when you get caught in security with something illegal that you might have been trying to slip through, you cannot say "oh, sorry, some other guy packed this bag and gave it to me, it's not really mine" or something like that.
ResponderEliminarI had to apply for a US visa just a few months ago. It had all the questions listed here and it was no surprise. What really seemed strange to me, though, is that questions regarding your education, past working relationships and any special skills involving technology, chemistry etc are only asked from *male* applicants!
ResponderEliminarI filled in the US Visa Waiver form a while back, and I seem to remember it asking if I planned to engage in "moral turpitude" whilst in the US. I hadn't intended to do so before I was asked, but it kind of sounded like fun once the prospect was raised.
ResponderEliminarI'm pretty sure it also asked me not to bring "birds, snails or other animals" into the US. Surely "animals" would have covered this stuff? Why emphasise birds and snails particularly?
When I did the documentation for my Green Card, the 'Communist Party' question was on there. When I handed in my paperwork, I pointed it out to the person behind the counter and said "I guess the Communists are still the bad guys, huh?" and she said "Yep, last time I checked."
ResponderEliminarWhat's worse is that even U.S. citizens, that have to deal with the INS, encounter multitudes of INS forms full of dopey questions and dopey people with attitudes.
ResponderEliminarThe DMV is a party compared to these people. A US citizen, requiring an appointment, takes about a year to get in NY. Then, they mail you the day and time of your meeting. If you can't make it you go back to the end of the line.
yeah, saame nonsense on the visa form.
ResponderEliminarIt's only a nation obsessed with burocracy that can make it a bigger offense to lie about being a terrorist on their forms rather than actually being one.
I often wonder if Gerry Adams ticked some of these boxes when he was being lauded in Washington.
Wouldn't it be impossible for anyone to answer yes truthfully to the terrorist organisation question? People who are members of such organisations don't think they're terrorists. They think they're freedom fighters trying to overthrow their oppressors or counter revolutionaries trying to regain control from the pretenders who siezed it in a traitorous coup or whatever. But not terrorists.
ResponderEliminarMaybe they need to print off a list of organisations they consider as such and change the question to "Have you ever been a member of an organisation listed on card C?" or similar.
I volunteer with a group that helps immigrants pass this citizenship test. I do know people who have answered 'yes' to these questions solely because their English is not good enough to really understand. Sometimes the questions are asked in a different way that the applicant isn't prepared for. I think the questions are left in to weed out those with poor spoken English.
ResponderEliminarI answered yes once on a similar questionnaire asking if I was bringing any drugs into Australia. Being a prepared individual with chronic health problems, I always travel with several legal prescription and over the counter drugs, so of course I declared them. I thought the form would specify illegal drugs if that's what they intended, and I wasn't sure what drugs were illegal there anyway as it isn't my native country. With the United States government being obsessed with prescription drugs from Canada or Mexico, it wouldn't surprise me if a government with a different constitution than ours confiscated such drugs at their border.
ResponderEliminarAnyway, I got shunted into a different line (with a much shorter wait, I might add), whereupon they looked at me like an idiot for not knowing they meant illegal drugs, and passed me through after a cursory search. At least now I know the reason for the question.
I worked on an IT project that involved processing this form. My favorite questions were:
ResponderEliminar"Have you ever advocated (either directly or indirectly) the overthrow of any government by force or violence?"
Does Iraq count?
"Have you ever committed a crime or offense for which you were not arrested?"
I think there should be a "Not that you know of" check box.
I lived in Canada for a while in the early 1990s, moving there to flee an abusive husband. In order to stay, since I was married and was there without my husband, I needed to get my husband's written consent. Yes, the same husband that I was fleeing due to abuse. My lawyer worked to get the requirement waived, to no avail. Fortunately, my (now) ex-husband did consent, but it cost me in the divorce settlement.
ResponderEliminarSo, it's not just the US immigration system that needs a reality check
Here is a foolproof way to get through US customs without them looking into your stuff (even though SL was taking about immigration it is related): there is typically a question when you fill out the form coming into the US about whether you have certain food products. Go ahead and check YES. This will guarantee they stop you since clearly the "right" answer is always NO. When they ask you what you have, show them your candy bar and say you wanted to be complete in answering the question (or were unsure if that counted as something you needed to report). They will immediately wave you through without bothering to check anything else. Plus, the line with people who checked YES is often shorter!
ResponderEliminarThis method has been tested and works.
I friend of a friend felt very secure at his citizenship interview, and when they asked him if he ever dealt drugs, he made a joke - he said "Why, do you need any?".
ResponderEliminarThey had no sense of humor. They treated it as if he was serious. No soup for you.
I work for the government in "Northern Ireland". There are ministers in our Assembly and Executive who some believe, rightly or wrongly, belonged to certain organisations which they consider, rightly or wrongly, to have been terrorist organisations. Does that mean that by working for them that I am associating with terrorists?! Or a terrorist organisation?! Should I play it safe and answer "Yes" next time I'm on my way to the US?!
ResponderEliminarGiven that it costs thousands of dollars to apply for citizenship, and the process is ridiculous as highlighted here, is it any wonder we have so many illegal immigrants in this country?
ResponderEliminarWhat person seeking a new life in America, escaping poverty and a lack of education elsewhere, could possibly navigate all this?
- "Very clever idea, though."
ResponderEliminar- "What is?"
- "Asking the questions when people arrive. If anyone was coming here to do some subversive overthrowing, everyone'd be down on him like a pound of bricks as soon as he answered 'Yes'."
- "It's a sneaky trick, isn't it," said Angalo, in an admiring tone of voice.
-- The nomes encounter American customs regulations
(Terry Pratchett, Wings)
Those questions are meant to provide a perjury charge when the applicant is caught lying later on. And these days only perjury charges are easy to prove, ex: the steroid scandal.
ResponderEliminarWhen I had my interview after filling the N400, the officer and I discussed if many Nazi party members were still alive, this was 2 yrs back.
But the other question is absurd. Why would anyone confess to a crime that the authorities are not aware of, when there is the 5th amendment protection guaranteed to all in the US not just citizens? Also declaring membership in a communist party does not mean much, it is not illegal to be a communist in the US.
Would owning an Ipod count as an indirect association with a Communist Party, considering that Ipods are made in China?
ResponderEliminarThese are ridiculous questions to ask people, and it is tempting to make fun of the INS for such idiocy....but remember this is a country where most (all?) states require every kid to mindlessly repeat the pledge of allegiance every day at school. Heck, our city council members and school local school board members even do it.
ResponderEliminarRE:52 - One requirement of becoming a citizen of the United States is to know and understand English. Unless an applicant meets certain requirements for a waiver (such as having a green card for 15 years and being over the age of 55 at the time of filing), they should know they have to speak English.
ResponderEliminarRE:58 - The officers who are conducting these interviews take them seriously. They are required to place applicants under oath before the interview begins. So, it wasn't very bright of your friend to "joke" around when he was giving sworn testimony. After all, he probably wouldn't start joking with a judge if he were on trial.
Regarding the communist question, it is still important. There are still communists out there trying to infiltrate our government and steal our secrets. A rather populous country that recently hosted the Olympics comes to mind.
In the late 1960s my friend wanted a visa to visit Chicago.
ResponderEliminarHe went to the US Embassy and one of the questions was "Have you ever used illegal drugs, and if so why?"
He answered "Yes, marijuana for listening to music."
He was surprised when he didn't get his visa.
I guess they don't give points for honesty or stupidity.
Someone pointed our the questions they ask about your luggage at a foreign airport when you come to the US. They have absolutely no value, particularly because most modern-day terrorists are suicidal (see shoe-bomber, Sept 11, etc.), therefore would pass the questionnaire with no problem.
ResponderEliminarAlso, why do they still ask those questions when there's actual screening of your luggage: does that mean that there is a possibility they miss a bomb (whatever the form) at screening?
Lastly, the worst part about the process is that the questions are always the same (word to word). This makes it very painful for both the security employee and frequent travelers. And because it is painful, this makes the process less effective in my opinion. Why wouldn't it be a normal conversation instead?
#65: "Regarding the communist question, it is still important. There are still communists out there trying to infiltrate our government and steal our secrets. A rather populous country that recently hosted the Olympics comes to mind."
ResponderEliminarYou must be joking aren't you? Or did you watch too many James Bond movies?
Being a Chinese spy who gets involved in criminal activities such as stealing sensitive information belonging to the American government has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he or she is a communist.
It is perfectly legal to be communist in the US. It is perfectly illegal to steal government secrets. Whether you are communist or not.
RE:67 - "You must be joking aren
ResponderEliminarI'm sorry but your starting assumptions are completely uncorrect, since you are using communism and china interchangeably. "Communist" does not equal "China" or even the "Chinese Communist Party". As far as I know, the USCIS doesn't ask you if you are part of the Chinese Communist Party. People shouldn't equate the US and capitalism for the same reason. Communism is an ideology based on very valid points from regarded theories of economy (think Marx). This point is generally completely disregarded in the US. I'm not saying that everybody should be communist, it is just not criminal to be one.
ResponderEliminarWhat if you're a spy from Irak, or Iran, or any other ideology or religion or country for that matter? The question is therefore completely outdated.
IIRC the luggage questions actually caught an unknowing bomber. The bomb was in a gift her fiance had packed.
ResponderEliminarOh come on, don't you watch "Lie to me"?
ResponderEliminarIt's amusing that you find it astonishing that these are on the naturalisation papers - they are in fact far more widespread, every non-US citizen visiting the United States has to fill these out, at least on the way from Europe.
ResponderEliminarThe worst part is filling them out in Shannon Airport (Ireland) while US soliders point and laugh, to this day unaware that the wall between you and them does not reach to the ceiling and therefore is not sound proof.
Both my parents were members of Communist party (well, are, since they never really officially quit it or anything). Guess what they answered.
ResponderEliminar